Welcome To The Veteran Talk Show
April 13, 2021

EP15: How We Found Saddam Hussein - The Interrogation Method

EP15: How We Found Saddam Hussein - The Interrogation Method

Former US Army interrogator Eric Maddox provides the now-unclassified story of how the U.S. Army tracked down Saddam Hussein, using information gained by Eric and his team, who were conducting interrogations with many Iraqi military prisoners.

This is the first episode in the 2nd season of “The David Johnson Show”, an online interview program in which former servicemen and servicewomen share their military stories as well as their present-day entrepreneurial pursuits.

Watch the full episode with Eric Maddox on YouTube and follow The David Johnson Show on social media. 

Follow us:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thedavidjohnsonshow/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DavidJohnsonSho
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-david-johnson-show/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedavidjohnsonshow/
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/davidjohnsonshow/

Transcript

0:00:00.240,0:00:03.199
you sit down with the driver you've

0:00:01.839,0:00:06.399
never met him before

0:00:03.199,0:00:08.000
how do you even start it out told him

0:00:06.399,0:00:09.920
very clearly

0:00:08.000,0:00:11.840
i know you're the driver you got to take

0:00:09.920,0:00:14.719
me obviously he's like

0:00:11.840,0:00:16.400
ah eric ever since you guys invaded i've

0:00:14.719,0:00:19.199
been out of a job so

0:00:16.400,0:00:19.920
it took me a while right six hours six

0:00:19.199,0:00:22.320
hours

0:00:19.920,0:00:24.560
wow and he looks and he goes yep i'm the

0:00:22.320,0:00:27.439
driver he said eric here's the deal

0:00:24.560,0:00:29.279
i drop the bodyguard off of one of five

0:00:27.439,0:00:29.679
safe houses into creed every single

0:00:29.279,0:00:31.199
night

0:00:29.679,0:00:32.800
he'll be at one of these five safe

0:00:31.199,0:00:35.760
houses tonight

0:00:32.800,0:00:36.960
got all five locations told bam bam bam

0:00:35.760,0:00:38.960
bam says well you know we're hitting

0:00:36.960,0:00:42.239
them all simultaneously

0:00:38.960,0:00:44.480
hit all five wow no bodyguard

0:00:42.239,0:00:46.559
oh at this point bam bam the team

0:00:44.480,0:00:48.879
brought me back from all five houses

0:00:46.559,0:00:50.719
all prisoners to our house i could do

0:00:48.879,0:00:52.160
the interrogations quick now it doesn't

0:00:50.719,0:00:54.160
take me hours

0:00:52.160,0:00:55.520
david now let's take just minutes and

0:00:54.160,0:00:57.840
minutes so that's going

0:00:55.520,0:00:58.719
those six hours what do you do small

0:00:57.840,0:01:01.199
talk oh i mean

0:00:58.719,0:01:01.199
what do you do

0:01:02.320,0:01:05.760
let's think about first of all a

0:01:05.040,0:01:07.760
prisoner

0:01:05.760,0:01:09.360
their their number one job is plausible

0:01:07.760,0:01:12.320
deniability so i've got

0:01:09.360,0:01:14.000
the the driver first trying to be

0:01:12.320,0:01:16.240
plausible deniability once i

0:01:14.000,0:01:18.640
kind of check made him on that then he

0:01:16.240,0:01:20.080
says okay i was scared i

0:01:18.640,0:01:21.920
lied to you now i've got to catch him

0:01:20.080,0:01:23.439
insults

0:01:21.920,0:01:24.960
then i've got to cut a deal with him and

0:01:23.439,0:01:26.560
say you know what if you really are

0:01:24.960,0:01:28.159
innocent um

0:01:26.560,0:01:29.840
you're not gonna lie to me and he goes

0:01:28.159,0:01:31.600
you know from this point on i won't

0:01:29.840,0:01:33.200
so i've got to make this ch this this

0:01:31.600,0:01:34.640
game put some stakes on it

0:01:33.200,0:01:36.240
then i've got to capture him in another

0:01:34.640,0:01:39.119
lie reveal it and him go

0:01:36.240,0:01:41.200
shoot you caught me now what and then

0:01:39.119,0:01:45.200
i've got to get him to measure

0:01:41.200,0:01:48.880
giving up his boss the bodyguard

0:01:45.200,0:01:50.880
or this guy interrogator smarter than me

0:01:48.880,0:01:53.040
and can put me away forever

0:01:50.880,0:01:54.960
i've got to get him to balance that then

0:01:53.040,0:01:57.200
we've got to navigate through

0:01:54.960,0:01:59.040
when i give him up how's eric maddox

0:01:57.200,0:02:01.200
going to protect my identity

0:01:59.040,0:02:02.719
so i've got to navigate through it then

0:02:01.200,0:02:04.479
i've got to get the locations

0:02:02.719,0:02:07.119
you ever tried to map track a prison or

0:02:04.479,0:02:08.720
any rock there's no go over this hill

0:02:07.119,0:02:11.599
it's like

0:02:08.720,0:02:13.360
flat saying this is before we'd been

0:02:11.599,0:02:15.040
there a long time so we didn't have this

0:02:13.360,0:02:17.280
whole thing digitized out

0:02:15.040,0:02:19.120
right right i mean all these then i've

0:02:17.280,0:02:21.760
got to get the locations then i've got

0:02:19.120,0:02:22.879
got to talk to commander and bambam says

0:02:21.760,0:02:24.560
i want all five

0:02:22.879,0:02:26.959
now i've got to get him for a pre for a

0:02:24.560,0:02:28.800
recon i mean it's not like

0:02:26.959,0:02:31.280
you don't have to recon them so now i've

0:02:28.800,0:02:31.920
got i mean all this stuff takes place

0:02:31.280,0:02:33.840
this is a

0:02:31.920,0:02:35.120
busy six hours you're gonna send that

0:02:33.840,0:02:36.400
delta force team you're not gonna give

0:02:35.120,0:02:39.760
him an address

0:02:36.400,0:02:43.360
right you're going to take a prisoner

0:02:39.760,0:02:45.599
who's not trusted out there

0:02:43.360,0:02:46.800
and these guys these american soldiers

0:02:45.599,0:02:50.560
have to dress up

0:02:46.800,0:02:54.480
in arab garb low viz right

0:02:50.560,0:02:56.239
all that's got to take place like

0:02:54.480,0:02:57.519
getting exhausted just thinking about it

0:02:56.239,0:02:59.360
aren't you right it's like that's a

0:02:57.519,0:03:01.599
full-on operation that's a full

0:02:59.360,0:03:02.480
day and there are no other sources of

0:03:01.599,0:03:04.000
intelligence

0:03:02.480,0:03:05.840
there are no cell phones we're not

0:03:04.000,0:03:08.239
tracking cell phones there's not high

0:03:05.840,0:03:09.920
level imagery right there we're not

0:03:08.239,0:03:13.040
collaborate collaborating

0:03:09.920,0:03:14.879
information intel it's a single source

0:03:13.040,0:03:16.400
prisoner intelligence to drive an

0:03:14.879,0:03:19.760
operation and what year was this

0:03:16.400,0:03:23.599
2003 2003 yes wow

0:03:19.760,0:03:25.280
yep so six safe houses

0:03:23.599,0:03:26.959
five i'm sorry five you thought the

0:03:25.280,0:03:28.000
bodyguard was gonna be at least one of

0:03:26.959,0:03:31.360
them

0:03:28.000,0:03:32.319
peanuts empty squirrels ah there weren't

0:03:31.360,0:03:34.480
squirrels

0:03:32.319,0:03:36.640
there were people okay just not people

0:03:34.480,0:03:39.200
not the person we were looking for

0:03:36.640,0:03:40.159
so the saga continues he brings them all

0:03:39.200,0:03:43.280
back to me

0:03:40.159,0:03:46.480
the team does how many people is 40

0:03:43.280,0:03:46.959
from all five safe houses yes wow and

0:03:46.480,0:03:48.319
before you

0:03:46.959,0:03:50.000
i think i know you said six hours to

0:03:48.319,0:03:51.840
gather the intel was this

0:03:50.000,0:03:53.519
from gathering the intel to hitting

0:03:51.840,0:03:56.400
these targets within the same

0:03:53.519,0:03:57.760
26 hours 36 hours yeah so this is these

0:03:56.400,0:03:59.120
are i mean and this is a testament to

0:03:57.760,0:04:01.280
the special operations community i mean

0:03:59.120,0:04:03.120
including yourself to gather this intel

0:04:01.280,0:04:04.879
plan the raid close target

0:04:03.120,0:04:07.200
reconnaissance if they're going to do it

0:04:04.879,0:04:08.319
hit the house and come off and pull that

0:04:07.200,0:04:10.319
all off that's not

0:04:08.319,0:04:11.840
exactly the it's just a testament a

0:04:10.319,0:04:13.920
testament to the community

0:04:11.840,0:04:16.400
it's awesome yeah but it's also to

0:04:13.920,0:04:19.519
understand to put it in perspective

0:04:16.400,0:04:22.560
you're less than three kilometers from

0:04:19.519,0:04:24.639
any target sure i mean you're

0:04:22.560,0:04:26.240
you're right there right so this is boom

0:04:24.639,0:04:28.320
boom boom boom yeah and this is what

0:04:26.240,0:04:30.960
these guys do they kick indoors and they

0:04:28.320,0:04:32.160
they take down objectives really well

0:04:30.960,0:04:34.479
really fast

0:04:32.160,0:04:36.720
i've seen it first answer so you five

0:04:34.479,0:04:39.680
five uh five safe houses or five

0:04:36.720,0:04:40.479
houses you pull off 40 people off the

0:04:39.680,0:04:43.040
these objective

0:04:40.479,0:04:43.680
objectives they brought him back to us

0:04:43.040,0:04:45.840
to me

0:04:43.680,0:04:47.040
i interrogated him and quickly i could

0:04:45.840,0:04:50.080
get him to go yep

0:04:47.040,0:04:51.199
running a safe house eric he left you

0:04:50.080,0:04:53.919
guys are close

0:04:51.199,0:04:55.360
you scared him to this town of samara

0:04:53.919,0:04:59.919
another prisoner says yes

0:04:55.360,0:05:01.919
in samara he has a senior commander

0:04:59.919,0:05:03.280
and i'll take you to the house so i went

0:05:01.919,0:05:05.840
to bam and i was like

0:05:03.280,0:05:07.600
hey five good houses good job we

0:05:05.840,0:05:11.039
actually pushed him to this house

0:05:07.600,0:05:13.840
and i said i'll promise he'll be there

0:05:11.039,0:05:14.160
don't ever promise but it's that i get

0:05:13.840,0:05:15.759
it

0:05:14.160,0:05:17.520
so he was scared off prior to these

0:05:15.759,0:05:19.520
raids i mean he kind of knew felt

0:05:17.520,0:05:20.960
hey the americans are on to me and he

0:05:19.520,0:05:22.639
just kept i mean we're

0:05:20.960,0:05:24.000
we're walking right the chain right we

0:05:22.639,0:05:26.639
just got his driver he

0:05:24.000,0:05:28.560
probably goes shoot they got my driver

0:05:26.639,0:05:29.039
i'm not staying at these safe houses

0:05:28.560,0:05:31.919
right

0:05:29.039,0:05:34.080
let me go to samara and then one of the

0:05:31.919,0:05:36.880
prisoners said his head guy in samara is

0:05:34.080,0:05:39.360
this person that lives at this house wow

0:05:36.880,0:05:42.560
we go to that house the next night

0:05:39.360,0:05:44.320
did you get and you know all these 40

0:05:42.560,0:05:45.680
uh prisoners off the objective they're

0:05:44.320,0:05:46.960
not talking to each other obviously so

0:05:45.680,0:05:48.160
are you playing kind of double source

0:05:46.960,0:05:49.680
like person a said this

0:05:48.160,0:05:52.160
i'm going to tell person c get that

0:05:49.680,0:05:52.639
intel is it is it's like a chess match

0:05:52.160,0:05:55.199
here

0:05:52.639,0:05:55.759
so it is it's a lot of that but well so

0:05:55.199,0:05:58.880
what it is

0:05:55.759,0:06:02.000
over the five months i've got a small

0:05:58.880,0:06:02.880
team uh at that time it was seven

0:06:02.000,0:06:05.440
prisoners

0:06:02.880,0:06:06.080
that are fully on board got it and i

0:06:05.440,0:06:08.240
have them

0:06:06.080,0:06:09.120
in the waiting room if i need to you

0:06:08.240,0:06:12.479
know what they call

0:06:09.120,0:06:15.199
jerry springer and bring one of them out

0:06:12.479,0:06:16.000
to reveal and talk to a prisoner i can

0:06:15.199,0:06:19.520
oh wow

0:06:16.000,0:06:21.919
my driver was the go-to guy

0:06:19.520,0:06:22.639
the driver would come out let me talk to

0:06:21.919,0:06:25.919
him

0:06:22.639,0:06:26.479
wow and they would wow what you're with

0:06:25.919,0:06:29.680
them

0:06:26.479,0:06:32.639
right oh my goodness so it was

0:06:29.680,0:06:34.560
anything i can do to help influence them

0:06:32.639,0:06:35.280
to gain cooperation and i had to do it

0:06:34.560,0:06:38.080
fast

0:06:35.280,0:06:38.960
wow okay so let's keep going down this

0:06:38.080,0:06:40.400
path

0:06:38.960,0:06:42.400
we got intel the bodyguard's going to be

0:06:40.400,0:06:44.800
in samara at this house

0:06:42.400,0:06:46.400
raid the house and how long after that

0:06:44.800,0:06:49.919
raid was the raid on the five

0:06:46.400,0:06:53.039
24 hours 24 hours later one night later

0:06:49.919,0:06:56.960
right wow raid the house nada

0:06:53.039,0:07:00.880
jeez but the younger brother

0:06:56.960,0:07:04.800
of the subcommander in samara

0:07:00.880,0:07:06.400
was at the house so the bodyguard wasn't

0:07:04.800,0:07:08.560
the bodyguard was supposed to be at his

0:07:06.400,0:07:10.639
subcommander's house in samara

0:07:08.560,0:07:12.960
but the younger brother that's of that

0:07:10.639,0:07:15.120
subcommander was at that house

0:07:12.960,0:07:16.319
it was the right house and we got a

0:07:15.120,0:07:19.599
younger brother

0:07:16.319,0:07:22.400
younger brother on the target

0:07:19.599,0:07:24.319
it's like hey i'm not getting arrested

0:07:22.400,0:07:25.840
i'm getting married this weekend you

0:07:24.319,0:07:28.400
cannot arrest me

0:07:25.840,0:07:29.199
wow i'll take you he's like muhammad

0:07:28.400,0:07:32.319
ibrahim

0:07:29.199,0:07:33.440
actually rented a house one block from

0:07:32.319,0:07:35.440
where you captured me

0:07:33.440,0:07:36.720
he's there right now muhammad ibrahimo

0:07:35.440,0:07:38.400
is the bodyguard it's the bodyguard

0:07:36.720,0:07:40.240
that's our guy so we're after muhammad

0:07:38.400,0:07:41.759
ibrahim he's the body immediately flex

0:07:40.240,0:07:43.360
target

0:07:41.759,0:07:46.000
to the right right then and there right

0:07:43.360,0:07:49.039
then and there to the bodyguard

0:07:46.000,0:07:51.680
uh rental house wow

0:07:49.039,0:07:52.879
bodyguard was not there jeez but his 20

0:07:51.680,0:07:55.759
year old son was

0:07:52.879,0:07:56.800
huh so at this point bam bam brings me

0:07:55.759,0:08:00.879
back the boys like

0:07:56.800,0:08:03.599
eric we're tapped i talked to the boy

0:08:00.879,0:08:04.560
he says my dad was here two hours before

0:08:03.599,0:08:07.039
you capture me

0:08:04.560,0:08:08.240
the boy says his dad the bodyguard the

0:08:07.039,0:08:10.240
one we're looking for

0:08:08.240,0:08:12.479
was at the house we raided two hours

0:08:10.240,0:08:15.120
before we got jeez

0:08:12.479,0:08:16.240
and bam bam said do you have anything

0:08:15.120,0:08:20.639
i'm like

0:08:16.240,0:08:22.479
he was there i we just missed him

0:08:20.639,0:08:24.479
bambin says well your flight you're

0:08:22.479,0:08:27.919
leaving to crete

0:08:24.479,0:08:29.120
your tour's up you're going back to

0:08:27.919,0:08:31.199
baghdad

0:08:29.120,0:08:32.959
the day after tomorrow two redeploy

0:08:31.199,0:08:35.519
redeploy tours up

0:08:32.959,0:08:37.680
wow nobody thinks saddam's into crete i

0:08:35.519,0:08:37.680
mean

0:08:38.839,0:08:43.919
nobody

0:08:40.159,0:08:45.760
weeks into my this deployment so it's a

0:08:43.919,0:08:49.040
six month deployment for me

0:08:45.760,0:08:50.080
six weeks into it the one cia guy that's

0:08:49.040,0:08:53.279
living with

0:08:50.080,0:08:55.839
this team gets shot

0:08:53.279,0:08:57.920
right shot in the stomach he had to

0:08:55.839,0:09:00.640
medevac to germany

0:08:57.920,0:09:03.279
david they didn't replace him they had

0:09:00.640,0:09:05.200
50 case officers in country

0:09:03.279,0:09:07.760
and they couldn't give one replacement

0:09:05.200,0:09:08.720
to the town of tikrit saddam's hometown

0:09:07.760,0:09:12.080
because they didn't think

0:09:08.720,0:09:13.120
anybody was there like he fled fled

0:09:12.080,0:09:14.640
like he left the cree you're saying

0:09:13.120,0:09:15.600
nobody thought saddam was in his why

0:09:14.640,0:09:17.360
would he stay there

0:09:15.600,0:09:19.120
why would anybody stay there it was this

0:09:17.360,0:09:20.480
little town you could hide in the

0:09:19.120,0:09:22.320
millions of baghdad

0:09:20.480,0:09:24.240
you could go to syria why do you think

0:09:22.320,0:09:25.279
they did stay there they felt safe they

0:09:24.240,0:09:26.880
had people to hide the

0:09:25.279,0:09:28.480
cover for them when you say they who do

0:09:26.880,0:09:29.519
you mean well saddam and if you thought

0:09:28.480,0:09:30.320
nobody was there i mean why would the

0:09:29.519,0:09:32.959
people that did so

0:09:30.320,0:09:34.480
i don't know if you remember but in 2003

0:09:32.959,0:09:35.040
the whole focus was on that deck of

0:09:34.480,0:09:37.519
cards

0:09:35.040,0:09:38.399
right right if you weren't on that deck

0:09:37.519,0:09:40.560
of cards

0:09:38.399,0:09:42.800
you were a nobody there was not one

0:09:40.560,0:09:44.560
bodyguard on that deck of cards

0:09:42.800,0:09:46.480
there was not one individual on my link

0:09:44.560,0:09:49.839
diagram on that deck of cards

0:09:46.480,0:09:50.320
that deck of cards was regime officials

0:09:49.839,0:09:53.040
correct

0:09:50.320,0:09:54.880
my entire link diagram was bodyguards

0:09:53.040,0:09:56.240
friends family relatives not a single

0:09:54.880,0:09:57.519
person on a deck card

0:09:56.240,0:10:00.000
so i'd spent five months and they're

0:09:57.519,0:10:02.320
like eric you all haven't found a single

0:10:00.000,0:10:04.399
person on the deck of cards

0:10:02.320,0:10:06.560
we don't think saddam's here you haven't

0:10:04.399,0:10:08.880
found anybody

0:10:06.560,0:10:09.920
he's not here so it's my tour's running

0:10:08.880,0:10:12.720
out for me to go

0:10:09.920,0:10:14.160
i think he's here like yeah man we got

0:10:12.720,0:10:15.680
you

0:10:14.160,0:10:18.480
you're fired up man you're doing a good

0:10:15.680,0:10:20.240
job i'm on the edge of my seat so you

0:10:18.480,0:10:21.680
after the five you hit the house where

0:10:20.240,0:10:22.959
you think he's gonna be in samara you

0:10:21.680,0:10:26.079
catch his kid

0:10:22.959,0:10:27.440
the bodyguard's kid no we caught the sub

0:10:26.079,0:10:29.360
commander oh the supper i'm sorry the

0:10:27.440,0:10:31.920
sub commander's little brother the flex

0:10:29.360,0:10:33.360
target to the rental house of the

0:10:31.920,0:10:34.800
bodyguard i apologize where we caught

0:10:33.360,0:10:37.600
the son of the bodyguard

0:10:34.800,0:10:38.640
wow okay and then what happened next so

0:10:37.600,0:10:41.200
i've got

0:10:38.640,0:10:42.640
one night right i'm you're going home

0:10:41.200,0:10:43.760
i'm well i'm going back to baghdad and

0:10:42.640,0:10:47.040
then redeploy

0:10:43.760,0:10:47.760
okay so start talking to the son of the

0:10:47.040,0:10:50.959
bodyguard

0:10:47.760,0:10:51.279
son of the bodyguard and he says eric he

0:10:50.959,0:10:53.760
was

0:10:51.279,0:10:55.120
my dad was here two hours ago he left

0:10:53.760,0:10:58.800
how would i know

0:10:55.120,0:11:01.279
right but we connect i mean

0:10:58.800,0:11:03.600
david this is all about connection this

0:11:01.279,0:11:07.040
turned into a full-blown connection like

0:11:03.600,0:11:08.000
this wow 20-year-old boy was laying on

0:11:07.040,0:11:10.160
the couch

0:11:08.000,0:11:12.240
crying telling me about how his dad

0:11:10.160,0:11:15.600
doesn't respect him as a man

0:11:12.240,0:11:17.839
like it's it's like a counseling session

0:11:15.600,0:11:19.600
and he starts talking he goes yeah my

0:11:17.839,0:11:21.120
dad doesn't respect me if he's a man

0:11:19.600,0:11:23.600
he goes i wish we could do some of the

0:11:21.120,0:11:25.680
things we used to do when i was a kid

0:11:23.600,0:11:27.200
i was like yeah what you guys used to do

0:11:25.680,0:11:29.200
he goes well we used to go fishing

0:11:27.200,0:11:32.000
she didn't take me fishing anymore i'm

0:11:29.200,0:11:34.480
like your dad's in the middle of a war

0:11:32.000,0:11:35.519
you might want to cut him some slack and

0:11:34.480,0:11:37.839
the boy said

0:11:35.519,0:11:38.560
no they still go fishing he just doesn't

0:11:37.839,0:11:41.440
take me

0:11:38.560,0:11:42.640
and at that point i remember when the

0:11:41.440,0:11:44.720
early interrogations

0:11:42.640,0:11:46.480
that we did we captured saddam hussein's

0:11:44.720,0:11:48.240
cook

0:11:46.480,0:11:49.920
guy cooked every meal for saddam hussein

0:11:48.240,0:11:51.680
for eight straight years and the cook

0:11:49.920,0:11:52.480
he's a cook he's wide open he did not

0:11:51.680,0:11:55.279
care he said

0:11:52.480,0:11:57.360
listen saddam really just loves this one

0:11:55.279,0:12:00.480
dish it's called moz goof

0:11:57.360,0:12:01.920
it's a fish dish chef said i make the

0:12:00.480,0:12:05.040
best moz goof in the world

0:12:01.920,0:12:06.399
i'm saddam hussein's cook and the boy

0:12:05.040,0:12:08.079
said yeah they still go fishing i said

0:12:06.399,0:12:10.079
where did they go fishing

0:12:08.079,0:12:12.240
he said along the tigris river i said

0:12:10.079,0:12:15.360
but where the boy said

0:12:12.240,0:12:17.040
eric they just built this fish pond next

0:12:15.360,0:12:20.560
to the river

0:12:17.040,0:12:22.320
they fish next to the pond wow and i'm

0:12:20.560,0:12:24.399
like why would you build a fish pond

0:12:22.320,0:12:26.079
during the middle of a war

0:12:24.399,0:12:28.160
unless you need to have this the pond

0:12:26.079,0:12:30.480
stocked because you couldn't go to the

0:12:28.160,0:12:32.720
market and get fish first time

0:12:30.480,0:12:33.680
so i went and told bam bam i'm like they

0:12:32.720,0:12:35.440
built a fish pond

0:12:33.680,0:12:37.440
i'm telling you i promise they'll be

0:12:35.440,0:12:39.200
there

0:12:37.440,0:12:41.920
and he's like he's i've been hearing

0:12:39.200,0:12:44.079
this for six months eric i know

0:12:41.920,0:12:45.040
well i wasn't promising until the end

0:12:44.079,0:12:47.120
right

0:12:45.040,0:12:48.639
and he said it's our last night he goes

0:12:47.120,0:12:50.560
if you want to hit a fish pawn

0:12:48.639,0:12:53.200
he needs to be there and i said bam bam

0:12:50.560,0:12:55.120
i'm telling i promise he'll be there

0:12:53.200,0:12:56.720
so that night bam bam and the team

0:12:55.120,0:12:59.360
raided the fish pond

0:12:56.720,0:12:59.839
because they had built a shack next to

0:12:59.360,0:13:02.480
the pawn

0:12:59.839,0:13:03.760
little probably about the size of this

0:13:02.480,0:13:06.880
right

0:13:03.760,0:13:09.040
go in bam bam's like we got two guys

0:13:06.880,0:13:11.040
20 minutes later he's like it's nothing

0:13:09.040,0:13:13.279
he said eric it's not the bodyguard

0:13:11.040,0:13:14.959
it's not saddam it's two fishermen he

0:13:13.279,0:13:16.720
said your helicopter's coming in

0:13:14.959,0:13:18.240
he goes bringing all the prisoners that

0:13:16.720,0:13:20.079
were living with us in the house he goes

0:13:18.240,0:13:22.240
get all the prisoners down the hilo pad

0:13:20.079,0:13:23.200
they pulled they they flew in a chinook

0:13:22.240,0:13:25.519
helicopter

0:13:23.200,0:13:27.279
bam bam brought me the two fishermen and

0:13:25.519,0:13:28.480
he said you're going back to baghdad he

0:13:27.279,0:13:29.120
said you won't leave for a couple of

0:13:28.480,0:13:30.880
days

0:13:29.120,0:13:32.320
don't quit he goes take all these

0:13:30.880,0:13:35.120
prisoners get the next target

0:13:32.320,0:13:36.720
wow so i go to baghdad i see all the

0:13:35.120,0:13:37.360
soldiers the bearded soldiers i hadn't

0:13:36.720,0:13:40.880
seen

0:13:37.360,0:13:42.639
in five and a half months and they said

0:13:40.880,0:13:43.680
all right your flight's leaving in three

0:13:42.639,0:13:45.920
days

0:13:43.680,0:13:47.040
so i brought in the fishermen started to

0:13:45.920,0:13:48.720
interrogate them

0:13:47.040,0:13:50.480
went back and forth and one of the

0:13:48.720,0:13:51.120
fishermen broke took me 11 and a half

0:13:50.480,0:13:53.600
hours

0:13:51.120,0:13:54.160
wow 11 hours fisherman breaks and says

0:13:53.600,0:13:56.959
eric

0:13:54.160,0:13:59.120
i'm the distant cousin of muhammad

0:13:56.959,0:14:00.880
ibrahim the bodyguard

0:13:59.120,0:14:02.320
wow he said i catch fish out of the

0:14:00.880,0:14:03.519
river i put it in the pond i said

0:14:02.320,0:14:05.440
where'd he go he said

0:14:03.519,0:14:07.680
a couple of days ago he came and he got

0:14:05.440,0:14:09.440
our address of our mutual aunt and uncle

0:14:07.680,0:14:10.399
in baghdad he said i think they're at

0:14:09.440,0:14:13.199
that house in

0:14:10.399,0:14:14.959
baghdad so i got the location called the

0:14:13.199,0:14:17.040
bambam of baghdad

0:14:14.959,0:14:18.639
said i need you to do this raid he's

0:14:17.040,0:14:20.160
like yeah whatever

0:14:18.639,0:14:21.760
put it on the list i'll put it on the

0:14:20.160,0:14:23.839
list put it we'll get to it

0:14:21.760,0:14:25.040
i said what does that mean he said eric

0:14:23.839,0:14:27.839
saddam's

0:14:25.040,0:14:29.279
not to crete and he wasn't into creed he

0:14:27.839,0:14:30.000
sure didn't come from tikrit to go to

0:14:29.279,0:14:31.920
baghdad

0:14:30.000,0:14:33.920
i'll put it on the list that's all i

0:14:31.920,0:14:34.399
heard i'm told my flight leaves in three

0:14:33.920,0:14:36.240
days

0:14:34.399,0:14:38.720
days come and went leaving the country

0:14:36.240,0:14:40.240
december 13 2003 at eight o'clock in the

0:14:38.720,0:14:42.560
morning

0:14:40.240,0:14:43.760
at one o'clock in the morning the bambam

0:14:42.560,0:14:45.360
of baghdad

0:14:43.760,0:14:48.240
calls back to the prisons like we had a

0:14:45.360,0:14:51.519
slow night we did your raid

0:14:48.240,0:14:52.480
nothing wasn't the bodyguard wasn't

0:14:51.519,0:14:54.959
saddam

0:14:52.480,0:14:56.240
we can bring you in the prisoners said

0:14:54.959,0:14:58.240
yeah bring him in

0:14:56.240,0:15:00.480
brought in the prisoners brought me the

0:14:58.240,0:15:02.800
guy they said owned the house in baghdad

0:15:00.480,0:15:04.240
sat him down started talking to him

0:15:02.800,0:15:08.480
connected with him

0:15:04.240,0:15:11.680
realized this guy is not from baghdad

0:15:08.480,0:15:12.639
interesting guys from tikrit guy's in

0:15:11.680,0:15:15.199
the link diagram

0:15:12.639,0:15:17.199
he's the deputy of my bodyguard like on

0:15:15.199,0:15:18.800
my whole link diagram he's the number

0:15:17.199,0:15:19.760
two guy and you got you had his place

0:15:18.800,0:15:22.480
right there you knew

0:15:19.760,0:15:24.320
he existed he his name was muhammad also

0:15:22.480,0:15:26.320
he was the other muhammad he was the

0:15:24.320,0:15:27.040
muhammad deputy of muhammad ibrahim the

0:15:26.320,0:15:28.720
body right

0:15:27.040,0:15:30.240
so you got the number two in charge of

0:15:28.720,0:15:31.440
right under the bodyguard i mean he's

0:15:30.240,0:15:34.800
right there and i'm like

0:15:31.440,0:15:38.320
this is not coincidental wow right so

0:15:34.800,0:15:40.959
i told him i said i need you to

0:15:38.320,0:15:41.920
take me to him right in my mind i'm

0:15:40.959,0:15:43.600
thinking

0:15:41.920,0:15:45.360
and you have how many days left in

0:15:43.600,0:15:48.320
country hours how many

0:15:45.360,0:15:49.839
i have four hours four hours left on a

0:15:48.320,0:15:52.160
six month tour

0:15:49.839,0:15:53.199
six month tour the past six months of

0:15:52.160,0:15:56.000
your life

0:15:53.199,0:15:57.920
was dedicated to getting hundreds of

0:15:56.000,0:16:00.000
people to trust you

0:15:57.920,0:16:01.040
gathering all this intelligence to go

0:16:00.000,0:16:02.880
after

0:16:01.040,0:16:05.040
the bodyguard who knows where saddam

0:16:02.880,0:16:05.839
hussein is you got four hours left and

0:16:05.040,0:16:07.600
you find

0:16:05.839,0:16:09.680
the guy right under the bodyguard that's

0:16:07.600,0:16:11.680
correct wow

0:16:09.680,0:16:13.279
okay go on i'm on the edge of my chair

0:16:11.680,0:16:16.320
so

0:16:13.279,0:16:18.000
i told him i'm like where is he right

0:16:16.320,0:16:19.199
you got to take me you got to take me

0:16:18.000,0:16:21.839
now

0:16:19.199,0:16:23.600
and the deputy the guy underneath the

0:16:21.839,0:16:26.800
bodyguard's like

0:16:23.600,0:16:30.480
eric when y'all came

0:16:26.800,0:16:34.000
and captured me last night at that house

0:16:30.480,0:16:34.839
he said the bodyguard was in the bed

0:16:34.000,0:16:38.320
next to me

0:16:34.839,0:16:41.600
oh no

0:16:38.320,0:16:45.360
they don't miss people yeah that's sad

0:16:41.600,0:16:48.000
so i'm like did they get him and they

0:16:45.360,0:16:51.199
didn't know it

0:16:48.000,0:16:52.480
so i'm like this is dealt this is the

0:16:51.199,0:16:54.240
baghdad team

0:16:52.480,0:16:55.680
they don't know what they're looking for

0:16:54.240,0:16:57.600
maybe muhammad you know like

0:16:55.680,0:16:59.360
maybe they got him so i told the guards

0:16:57.600,0:17:00.880
i said bring me any prisoner from any

0:16:59.360,0:17:02.399
raids last night they brought him in

0:17:00.880,0:17:04.000
they're just four prisoners sitting on

0:17:02.399,0:17:05.760
the ground hoods over their head

0:17:04.000,0:17:07.360
handcuffs behind their back

0:17:05.760,0:17:08.799
we did not have a picture of muhammad

0:17:07.360,0:17:09.600
ibrahim but i knew exactly was supposed

0:17:08.799,0:17:12.880
to look like

0:17:09.600,0:17:15.360
my bodyguard was supposed to have a chin

0:17:12.880,0:17:16.559
like john travolta yeah right start

0:17:15.360,0:17:19.039
lifting up hoods

0:17:16.559,0:17:19.839
last hood lifted it up before i even got

0:17:19.039,0:17:23.199
the hood off

0:17:19.839,0:17:25.839
i saw the chin and i'm like wow

0:17:23.199,0:17:27.679
oh my gosh that's muhammad ibrahim

0:17:25.839,0:17:30.080
that's what i said to him i just said

0:17:27.679,0:17:31.280
hey muhammad nice to meet you oh he said

0:17:30.080,0:17:34.960
i was shocked right

0:17:31.280,0:17:37.520
and i was like you're muhammad ibrahim

0:17:34.960,0:17:39.360
man i've been waiting to meet you and he

0:17:37.520,0:17:42.480
looks at me in perfect english he goes

0:17:39.360,0:17:42.799
you're the interrogator in tikrit he

0:17:42.480,0:17:44.960
said

0:17:42.799,0:17:46.480
i've been waiting to meet you too damn

0:17:44.960,0:17:49.440
right now

0:17:46.480,0:17:49.840
i've got two and a half hours brought

0:17:49.440,0:17:52.720
him in

0:17:49.840,0:17:54.160
set him down and told myself you got to

0:17:52.720,0:17:56.640
connect with him got to give him

0:17:54.160,0:17:58.320
you know don't don't overthink it don't

0:17:56.640,0:18:00.640
rush it just listen to him

0:17:58.320,0:18:02.000
just took off the lid and i said the

0:18:00.640,0:18:04.640
only thing we could talk about

0:18:02.000,0:18:06.480
is the exact location of saddam right i

0:18:04.640,0:18:08.000
didn't know what he was going to say

0:18:06.480,0:18:09.840
but i knew wherever he wherever he

0:18:08.000,0:18:14.320
started would tell me where to go

0:18:09.840,0:18:17.200
hmm he said you give me too much credit

0:18:14.320,0:18:18.000
he said the president i don't know where

0:18:17.200,0:18:19.679
he is

0:18:18.000,0:18:21.679
and i knew i knew immediately he knew he

0:18:19.679,0:18:24.640
was lying no i didn't care

0:18:21.679,0:18:25.840
everybody lies like i don't this isn't a

0:18:24.640,0:18:26.559
lie detector so what did you know when

0:18:25.840,0:18:29.679
you say i knew what

0:18:26.559,0:18:33.280
you what did you know that his

0:18:29.679,0:18:36.320
perception his whole world was why

0:18:33.280,0:18:37.600
me you give me too much credit he was

0:18:36.320,0:18:39.600
not on the deck of cards

0:18:37.600,0:18:41.600
saddam had hundreds of bodyguards he had

0:18:39.600,0:18:42.799
30 inner circle bodyguards why did he

0:18:41.600,0:18:44.799
pick this guy

0:18:42.799,0:18:46.480
right and he goes you give me too much

0:18:44.799,0:18:49.360
credit and i just very clearly i said

0:18:46.480,0:18:49.760
i i didn't give you any credit no i said

0:18:49.360,0:18:51.679
i

0:18:49.760,0:18:52.960
i didn't know who you were before i came

0:18:51.679,0:18:54.720
to this country

0:18:52.960,0:18:56.640
i said but the 300 prisoners i've

0:18:54.720,0:18:57.520
interrogated the 40 of your family

0:18:56.640,0:19:00.559
members

0:18:57.520,0:19:02.480
that i have in this prison right now

0:19:00.559,0:19:04.400
they give you credit i said they gave

0:19:02.480,0:19:07.840
you credit for ruining

0:19:04.400,0:19:09.120
their lives wow and he kind of rolls his

0:19:07.840,0:19:10.320
eyes it's a punch in the gut

0:19:09.120,0:19:12.400
he went rolling his eyes at me he's

0:19:10.320,0:19:15.520
rolling his eyes right

0:19:12.400,0:19:17.039
like if you knew muhammad ibrahim which

0:19:15.520,0:19:18.480
i didn't know him personally but i knew

0:19:17.039,0:19:20.480
exactly who he was

0:19:18.480,0:19:21.600
saddam had 30 inner circle bodyguards he

0:19:20.480,0:19:23.679
could have picked anybody

0:19:21.600,0:19:25.120
why'd he pick this guy all of saddam's

0:19:23.679,0:19:27.200
bodyguards they were

0:19:25.120,0:19:29.360
they were not smart but they used the

0:19:27.200,0:19:31.200
power of being saddam's bodyguards

0:19:29.360,0:19:32.480
against the local populace to their own

0:19:31.200,0:19:34.720
personal advantage

0:19:32.480,0:19:36.160
except muhammad ibrahim he was the

0:19:34.720,0:19:38.160
nicest fun-loving

0:19:36.160,0:19:39.600
whiskey drinking domino player think of

0:19:38.160,0:19:42.400
what saddam hussein did

0:19:39.600,0:19:42.960
saddam hussein saw this deck of cards as

0:19:42.400,0:19:46.160
as

0:19:42.960,0:19:47.760
as beacons to him so he makes

0:19:46.160,0:19:49.200
everybody on the deck of cards leave his

0:19:47.760,0:19:51.760
hometown

0:19:49.200,0:19:53.039
he also knew that all the locals hated

0:19:51.760,0:19:55.919
the bodyguards

0:19:53.039,0:19:57.360
he made all them go away except for

0:19:55.919,0:20:00.320
muhammad ibrahim he said

0:19:57.360,0:20:01.919
this one guy can know where i am but

0:20:00.320,0:20:03.280
nobody's going to turn in this guy he

0:20:01.919,0:20:06.320
doesn't have any enemies

0:20:03.280,0:20:09.440
everybody loves him they won't turn him

0:20:06.320,0:20:11.039
into the americans that was saddam's

0:20:09.440,0:20:13.840
strategy

0:20:11.039,0:20:15.520
the civilians in the town would not turn

0:20:13.840,0:20:17.120
that one bodyguard

0:20:15.520,0:20:18.400
over would not kind of flip on him

0:20:17.120,0:20:19.120
because he was loved by the people

0:20:18.400,0:20:20.960
that's right

0:20:19.120,0:20:22.720
wow and then that's why he rolled his

0:20:20.960,0:20:23.919
eyes when you said i got 40 people in

0:20:22.720,0:20:26.159
here that says you're the man

0:20:23.919,0:20:27.520
no who give you credit you credit for

0:20:26.159,0:20:29.679
ruining their lives

0:20:27.520,0:20:30.960
wow see i don't need to make this about

0:20:29.679,0:20:32.880
can you do it

0:20:30.960,0:20:34.080
i need to make this about look what's

0:20:32.880,0:20:35.039
happening to you it's think about

0:20:34.080,0:20:36.880
interrogations

0:20:35.039,0:20:38.159
you can't make it about what they should

0:20:36.880,0:20:40.000
do for you

0:20:38.159,0:20:41.919
what they need to do for you it's got to

0:20:40.000,0:20:43.840
be about them

0:20:41.919,0:20:45.600
did he know where saddam was well i

0:20:43.840,0:20:46.480
didn't know so what happened then so you

0:20:45.600,0:20:49.679
leave you got hours

0:20:46.480,0:20:50.080
oh no no no no so as my clock's ticking

0:20:49.679,0:20:51.600
out

0:20:50.080,0:20:54.400
like we're going back and forth and like

0:20:51.600,0:20:57.840
my my final thing he had a daughter

0:20:54.400,0:20:59.760
uh that had a baby that his wife

0:20:57.840,0:21:01.039
and was hiding into crete and i said

0:20:59.760,0:21:02.960
your wife and the baby have been living

0:21:01.039,0:21:03.520
here and he was shocked i didn't know

0:21:02.960,0:21:05.600
and i said

0:21:03.520,0:21:06.960
i never went to that house i would never

0:21:05.600,0:21:08.240
send the soldiers to that house i would

0:21:06.960,0:21:09.360
never hurt that baby

0:21:08.240,0:21:11.440
i said where else are you going to go to

0:21:09.360,0:21:14.159
find someone than their spouse

0:21:11.440,0:21:15.919
i said what will he do for you now what

0:21:14.159,0:21:18.080
will he do for your baby i've got him

0:21:15.919,0:21:19.679
crying right like he's really broke down

0:21:18.080,0:21:21.120
and the time's running out the

0:21:19.679,0:21:22.320
interrogator's like dude you got to go

0:21:21.120,0:21:24.000
catch a plane

0:21:22.320,0:21:25.840
so i take him to his cell i'm like i

0:21:24.000,0:21:27.200
need it i need it now and he's like

0:21:25.840,0:21:28.400
i don't know if i should do it like he

0:21:27.200,0:21:30.080
didn't say he couldn't do it he said i

0:21:28.400,0:21:31.440
don't know if i should do it i'm like i

0:21:30.080,0:21:33.039
really think you should

0:21:31.440,0:21:35.679
and should mean tell you where saddam is

0:21:33.039,0:21:36.000
yes okay and he said i can't i said all

0:21:35.679,0:21:38.159
right

0:21:36.000,0:21:39.840
i'm leaving i'm not joking this is not a

0:21:38.159,0:21:42.480
joke

0:21:39.840,0:21:43.280
you spent six months you finally got the

0:21:42.480,0:21:46.080
guy you have an

0:21:43.280,0:21:48.640
hour left before your flight leaves it's

0:21:46.080,0:21:50.320
literally down to the hour

0:21:48.640,0:21:51.840
and this guy's i don't know if i should

0:21:50.320,0:21:55.520
that's insane

0:21:51.840,0:21:57.679
insane yeah all right so go on sorry

0:21:55.520,0:21:59.440
so i told him i said you're going to be

0:21:57.679,0:22:01.039
in here you're going to change your mind

0:21:59.440,0:22:03.120
i said i know how the story ends i said

0:22:01.039,0:22:05.200
i'm not kidding i ran out of time

0:22:03.120,0:22:06.480
i said i'm going to be gone when you

0:22:05.200,0:22:07.600
change your mind and you're going to

0:22:06.480,0:22:09.919
take us to saddam

0:22:07.600,0:22:11.280
i will be gone i said nobody here thinks

0:22:09.919,0:22:13.120
you can do it

0:22:11.280,0:22:15.200
when you do it you got to go crazy i

0:22:13.120,0:22:18.480
said make them come talk to you

0:22:15.200,0:22:19.840
yell scream make them come talk to you

0:22:18.480,0:22:21.760
no one's ever going to talk to you again

0:22:19.840,0:22:24.080
you're going to die and hear an old man

0:22:21.760,0:22:25.200
wow so i laughed right i put him in the

0:22:24.080,0:22:27.120
cell i left

0:22:25.200,0:22:29.360
i had i didn't pack my bags packed my

0:22:27.120,0:22:29.919
bags and senior interrogator comes pick

0:22:29.360,0:22:32.640
me up

0:22:29.919,0:22:34.159
driving to the tarmac right and when j

0:22:32.640,0:22:36.240
you're right next to the

0:22:34.159,0:22:38.240
the plane they're driving across the

0:22:36.240,0:22:40.640
tarmac senior interrogator

0:22:38.240,0:22:41.520
says what'd you do to the prisoner i'm

0:22:40.640,0:22:44.559
like

0:22:41.520,0:22:45.679
why nothing why he goes guards are

0:22:44.559,0:22:47.440
freaking out

0:22:45.679,0:22:49.200
they think he's trying to kill himself

0:22:47.440,0:22:50.480
they said he can't stop getting from

0:22:49.200,0:22:53.360
banging his head

0:22:50.480,0:22:55.039
against the wall of his cell and i'm

0:22:53.360,0:22:58.159
like he's trying to do it

0:22:55.039,0:22:59.840
jumped out of the truck ran across went

0:22:58.159,0:23:00.880
to the prison got muhammad he bring him

0:22:59.840,0:23:02.880
out took off his head

0:23:00.880,0:23:04.159
said where is he he looks at me and he

0:23:02.880,0:23:05.840
said we got to go

0:23:04.159,0:23:07.600
we got to go right now i said don't mess

0:23:05.840,0:23:09.760
with me man where are we going

0:23:07.600,0:23:11.440
he said we're going back to tikrit he

0:23:09.760,0:23:13.120
said he's in this village called adwar

0:23:11.440,0:23:14.400
at the farmhouse with a man named kais

0:23:13.120,0:23:16.480
and they make justine

0:23:14.400,0:23:17.760
and i'm like showman he start he drew a

0:23:16.480,0:23:19.760
beautiful sketch

0:23:17.760,0:23:22.000
got the map and he goes eric we got to

0:23:19.760,0:23:23.520
go interrogators are back i said that

0:23:22.000,0:23:25.840
guy just broke

0:23:23.520,0:23:27.679
they said go get on the plane i said you

0:23:25.840,0:23:28.159
don't understand saddam hussein's into

0:23:27.679,0:23:30.080
crete

0:23:28.159,0:23:31.520
and they said you don't understand we

0:23:30.080,0:23:34.640
know he's not to crete

0:23:31.520,0:23:36.559
go get on the plane and i'm like please

0:23:34.640,0:23:39.679
call bam bam tell him

0:23:36.559,0:23:40.480
muhammad ibrahim is dying to take him to

0:23:39.679,0:23:43.440
saddam

0:23:40.480,0:23:44.640
i gave him the sketch they put me on the

0:23:43.440,0:23:47.120
truck they flew me to

0:23:44.640,0:23:48.480
they took me to that flight and i left i

0:23:47.120,0:23:51.600
left the country

0:23:48.480,0:23:51.919
and david when you're with jace hawk you

0:23:51.600,0:23:54.640
don't

0:23:51.919,0:23:55.840
go home they fly you to doha the next

0:23:54.640,0:23:58.640
morning i had to give a

0:23:55.840,0:23:59.679
top secret out briefing of my entire

0:23:58.640,0:24:02.559
tour

0:23:59.679,0:24:03.200
i've got my link diagram show up to the

0:24:02.559,0:24:05.520
building

0:24:03.200,0:24:06.240
they knocked on the door senior officer

0:24:05.520,0:24:09.120
opens up

0:24:06.240,0:24:09.440
and he said all briefings this morning

0:24:09.120,0:24:13.360
are

0:24:09.440,0:24:14.240
canceled clunk and the sergeant knocked

0:24:13.360,0:24:17.120
on the door

0:24:14.240,0:24:18.159
and he said staffs aren't maddox can't

0:24:17.120,0:24:19.840
leave the country

0:24:18.159,0:24:21.360
until he gets his briefing and the

0:24:19.840,0:24:21.760
senior officer pulled me inside and he

0:24:21.360,0:24:24.880
said

0:24:21.760,0:24:26.000
you're eric maddox i said yes he said

0:24:24.880,0:24:28.400
eric

0:24:26.000,0:24:29.360
we got him wow we got him last night he

0:24:28.400,0:24:31.679
said

0:24:29.360,0:24:34.000
your prisoner did it and i said

0:24:31.679,0:24:36.000
bodyguard did it how to go down

0:24:34.000,0:24:37.200
and he said well when you left we called

0:24:36.000,0:24:39.600
bam bam

0:24:37.200,0:24:41.039
bam bam in the team the whole team

0:24:39.600,0:24:43.279
jumped on a helicopter

0:24:41.039,0:24:44.799
picked up muhammad ibrahim the bodyguard

0:24:43.279,0:24:48.400
went to tikrit planned

0:24:44.799,0:24:50.240
executed the raid of the farmhouse

0:24:48.400,0:24:51.440
and he took him straight to the hole and

0:24:50.240,0:24:54.640
muhammad ibrahim was

0:24:51.440,0:24:57.120
on target when the raid happened bambam

0:24:54.640,0:24:57.840
yes bambam and the team raids right

0:24:57.120,0:25:00.080
right

0:24:57.840,0:25:01.679
the united states army said hey we've

0:25:00.080,0:25:03.760
been to every house in decree we've been

0:25:01.679,0:25:05.919
to this farm twice

0:25:03.760,0:25:07.279
they couldn't find saddam they go to the

0:25:05.919,0:25:08.960
bodyguard

0:25:07.279,0:25:10.880
pull him out of the truck tough called

0:25:08.960,0:25:12.640
off his handcuffs take off his hood

0:25:10.880,0:25:13.919
said where is he the bodyguard walks

0:25:12.640,0:25:14.720
them around to the back side of the

0:25:13.919,0:25:17.039
house

0:25:14.720,0:25:18.480
it's just sand and dirt and he kicks it

0:25:17.039,0:25:20.159
up with his heels

0:25:18.480,0:25:22.159
and there's a there's a rope they

0:25:20.159,0:25:25.200
realize he's kicking up a rope

0:25:22.159,0:25:27.919
they moved him aside they dug it up

0:25:25.200,0:25:29.360
rope's connected to a lid wow they look

0:25:27.919,0:25:31.600
at the bodyguard and he's not saying

0:25:29.360,0:25:34.320
anything he's just going

0:25:31.600,0:25:34.799
all right so they're drawn lift up the

0:25:34.320,0:25:36.880
lid

0:25:34.799,0:25:38.000
and there he was we all know what

0:25:36.880,0:25:39.520
happened to saddam what happened to

0:25:38.000,0:25:42.240
muhammad ibrahim after that

0:25:39.520,0:25:43.200
did he continue to cooperate how did you

0:25:42.240,0:25:46.880
guys treat him after that

0:25:43.200,0:25:48.559
so muhammad ibrahim i never promised

0:25:46.880,0:25:51.279
that he would be released he was too

0:25:48.559,0:25:51.919
volatile right but all those 40 family

0:25:51.279,0:25:54.640
members

0:25:51.919,0:25:56.000
released the next week he eventually he

0:25:54.640,0:25:58.720
was there for three years he got

0:25:56.000,0:25:59.279
released he went and got a gazillion

0:25:58.720,0:26:02.000
dollars

0:25:59.279,0:26:02.480
of saddam's in syria saddam had over

0:26:02.000,0:26:05.760
three

0:26:02.480,0:26:06.559
billion dollars in cash stored in aleppo

0:26:05.760,0:26:10.320
syria

0:26:06.559,0:26:13.360
just before the two invasion of 2003 war

0:26:10.320,0:26:15.679
you know wow when i was in

0:26:13.360,0:26:16.480
iraq the second time we captured a guy

0:26:15.679,0:26:18.559
who said he

0:26:16.480,0:26:19.679
drove some of that money over the border

0:26:18.559,0:26:24.640
no kidding

0:26:19.679,0:26:26.880
i digress did that i don't want to say

0:26:24.640,0:26:27.760
hurt but did you feel you missed out

0:26:26.880,0:26:31.600
because you spent

0:26:27.760,0:26:33.120
six months uh that's a lot of energy

0:26:31.600,0:26:34.640
that's a lot of time that that's an

0:26:33.120,0:26:36.240
emotional commitment

0:26:34.640,0:26:37.760
and then you weren't there when because

0:26:36.240,0:26:38.080
your tour ended did you feel you kind of

0:26:37.760,0:26:39.600
missed

0:26:38.080,0:26:41.200
out because you didn't you weren't there

0:26:39.600,0:26:43.440
on target when they got saddam

0:26:41.200,0:26:44.799
i mean i would have probably i would

0:26:43.440,0:26:46.880
have i don't think so

0:26:44.799,0:26:49.039
i didn't at the time i get that question

0:26:46.880,0:26:50.000
more than any other question so now i'm

0:26:49.039,0:26:53.440
like well maybe

0:26:50.000,0:26:55.520
i guess it would have been better for me

0:26:53.440,0:26:57.760
when you're dialed in you know when

0:26:55.520,0:27:00.240
you're so in

0:26:57.760,0:27:02.559
you just want to get the guy so for me

0:27:00.240,0:27:05.440
it was i did my job

0:27:02.559,0:27:06.559
bam bam he didn't need me at the target

0:27:05.440,0:27:08.240
they did their job

0:27:06.559,0:27:10.000
and you know what you did you felt that

0:27:08.240,0:27:11.600
that pride there's a sense of pride

0:27:10.000,0:27:13.760
there listen not not uh

0:27:11.600,0:27:15.919
yeah i don't make any bones about it

0:27:13.760,0:27:17.840
right people talk a lot of stuff about

0:27:15.919,0:27:19.200
what we've done and who we've done i'll

0:27:17.840,0:27:21.520
tell you exactly what i did

0:27:19.200,0:27:22.880
i tracked down saddam hussein right i

0:27:21.520,0:27:25.039
don't need to be on that raid

0:27:22.880,0:27:26.640
wow i don't even know what time it is

0:27:25.039,0:27:28.880
i'm just so so caught up in this this is

0:27:26.640,0:27:31.039
a great story so

0:27:28.880,0:27:32.799
that's how saddam hussein got captured

0:27:31.039,0:27:34.080
very briefly what did the next 10

0:27:32.799,0:27:36.399
15 years look for you because i mean

0:27:34.080,0:27:37.919
this is now 16 17 years ago when that

0:27:36.399,0:27:39.679
happened and you've had a full career

0:27:37.919,0:27:42.799
since then and just doing amazing things

0:27:39.679,0:27:44.399
so i'm immediately taken straight to the

0:27:42.799,0:27:45.200
pentagon straight to at the end

0:27:44.399,0:27:47.760
secretary of

0:27:45.200,0:27:49.200
defense donald rumsfeld's office right

0:27:47.760,0:27:50.960
secretary rumsfeld

0:27:49.200,0:27:52.480
loved how this went down he loved the

0:27:50.960,0:27:53.520
interrogations and he said

0:27:52.480,0:27:56.080
i don't want to have to borrow

0:27:53.520,0:27:56.799
interrogators who are chinese mandarin

0:27:56.080,0:27:58.480
linguists

0:27:56.799,0:28:00.399
he goes i want my own team of

0:27:58.480,0:28:03.760
interrogators instant

0:28:00.399,0:28:06.000
like the next weekend had got

0:28:03.760,0:28:08.480
received the funding for the defense

0:28:06.000,0:28:10.159
intelligence agency to have a 30-person

0:28:08.480,0:28:13.039
civilian interrogation team

0:28:10.159,0:28:13.919
and i was hired as the first one pulled

0:28:13.039,0:28:17.360
out of the army

0:28:13.919,0:28:19.679
became a gs interrogator for the dia

0:28:17.360,0:28:21.520
as a civilian interrogator over the next

0:28:19.679,0:28:24.159
10 years i ended up doing a total

0:28:21.520,0:28:25.279
of eight deployments 2 700

0:28:24.159,0:28:27.440
interrogations

0:28:25.279,0:28:29.360
and my first year my first assignment

0:28:27.440,0:28:31.279
was teach this technique

0:28:29.360,0:28:33.440
teach this empathy-based listening

0:28:31.279,0:28:35.840
interrogation technique

0:28:33.440,0:28:37.600
i'm going to tell you of interrogations

0:28:35.840,0:28:39.360
before empathy based listening technique

0:28:37.600,0:28:41.760
using the army's old techniques

0:28:39.360,0:28:44.399
prisoners break at four percent

0:28:41.760,0:28:46.399
the 30-person interrogation team and my

0:28:44.399,0:28:47.120
i ended up doing 2 700 they've done

0:28:46.399,0:28:50.399
thousands

0:28:47.120,0:28:53.679
we break prisoners at 65 wow

0:28:50.399,0:28:54.399
using this technique in 2014 i hit the

0:28:53.679,0:28:57.520
20

0:28:54.399,0:29:01.279
year mark 10 military 10 civilian

0:28:57.520,0:29:03.840
dia i got out of the government

0:29:01.279,0:29:04.960
and became a keynote speaker and trainer

0:29:03.840,0:29:08.640
of empathy

0:29:04.960,0:29:11.760
based listening to gain influence

0:29:08.640,0:29:13.440
for sales negotiations wow

0:29:11.760,0:29:15.440
so wrap this up and kind of tell me a

0:29:13.440,0:29:16.960
little bit more about this empathy based

0:29:15.440,0:29:18.080
what what what goes into it i mean i

0:29:16.960,0:29:19.760
heard a lot of the stories while you're

0:29:18.080,0:29:22.640
tracking down saddam but

0:29:19.760,0:29:24.640
outside of maybe a war zone outside of

0:29:22.640,0:29:26.799
that specific mission you were on what's

0:29:24.640,0:29:29.200
more of this empathy-based approach

0:29:26.799,0:29:31.200
so empathy-based listening is the idea

0:29:29.200,0:29:32.960
that when we talk to people

0:29:31.200,0:29:34.960
they're measuring anybody they have a

0:29:32.960,0:29:37.760
conversation with can i trust you

0:29:34.960,0:29:39.039
of what can i trust that you're more

0:29:37.760,0:29:41.440
interested in me

0:29:39.039,0:29:43.520
then you are yourself right that's what

0:29:41.440,0:29:45.039
we call the hurdle of trust

0:29:43.520,0:29:46.799
the problem is every time we're

0:29:45.039,0:29:48.240
communicating with somebody we have

0:29:46.799,0:29:50.880
psychological distractions

0:29:48.240,0:29:52.399
it lowers our listening to 25 percent we

0:29:50.880,0:29:54.960
think about our own agenda

0:29:52.399,0:29:55.919
our own goals our biases towards this

0:29:54.960,0:29:58.320
individual

0:29:55.919,0:30:01.520
right everything in our world and if we

0:29:58.320,0:30:03.919
can identify those distractions

0:30:01.520,0:30:05.600
put them behind us and then have a

0:30:03.919,0:30:08.000
single agenda

0:30:05.600,0:30:09.440
instead of our own goals a single agenda

0:30:08.000,0:30:11.039
of seeking to understand their

0:30:09.440,0:30:13.360
perspective with regards to the top

0:30:11.039,0:30:15.039
conversation at that moment time you can

0:30:13.360,0:30:16.480
catapult your listening deep into the

0:30:15.039,0:30:19.440
80s and 90s

0:30:16.480,0:30:20.720
interesting when you do that there's no

0:30:19.440,0:30:23.360
higher way

0:30:20.720,0:30:26.080
to gain immediate trust in any

0:30:23.360,0:30:28.320
relationship with a family member

0:30:26.080,0:30:29.520
with a colleague or a prisoner you just

0:30:28.320,0:30:31.120
yanked off the battlefield

0:30:29.520,0:30:32.880
why because it makes the person talking

0:30:31.120,0:30:35.440
feel welcome

0:30:32.880,0:30:36.799
feel invited feel loved let me say it

0:30:35.440,0:30:40.080
again

0:30:36.799,0:30:41.600
when people are in a relationship the

0:30:40.080,0:30:43.279
trust is not that you're going to steal

0:30:41.600,0:30:45.120
my wallet i'll make sure you're that

0:30:43.279,0:30:46.960
have that level of integrity

0:30:45.120,0:30:48.799
the partnership is if we're going to

0:30:46.960,0:30:52.399
work together

0:30:48.799,0:30:56.559
what's more important to you your goals

0:30:52.399,0:30:59.919
or mine you can't

0:30:56.559,0:31:02.559
get you can't put

0:30:59.919,0:31:04.159
somebody else ahead of yourself unless

0:31:02.559,0:31:06.640
you can remove

0:31:04.159,0:31:08.799
everything in your mind to even listen

0:31:06.640,0:31:10.880
to seek to understand what matters to

0:31:08.799,0:31:14.000
them

0:31:10.880,0:31:15.760
if you can live a life of listening to

0:31:14.000,0:31:18.000
seeking to understand

0:31:15.760,0:31:19.519
then you build just a personal culture a

0:31:18.000,0:31:22.960
professional culture

0:31:19.519,0:31:23.519
that says here what we do is figure you

0:31:22.960,0:31:26.240
out

0:31:23.519,0:31:27.600
for you and that's what everyone wants

0:31:26.240,0:31:31.039
to partner with

0:31:27.600,0:31:33.519
wow i get it in conclusion

0:31:31.039,0:31:34.080
veterans you know that's why i started

0:31:33.519,0:31:35.519
the show

0:31:34.080,0:31:37.279
we're big on the military veteran

0:31:35.519,0:31:40.640
community

0:31:37.279,0:31:42.720
what can you tell the veteran community

0:31:40.640,0:31:45.120
to specifically maybe veterans still

0:31:42.720,0:31:48.159
trying to find their path

0:31:45.120,0:31:48.880
what i would tell veterans is we can't

0:31:48.159,0:31:52.480
look at

0:31:48.880,0:31:54.640
like look at your military past and say

0:31:52.480,0:31:55.600
i'm going to make the assumption or i

0:31:54.640,0:31:58.559
have the belief

0:31:55.600,0:31:59.200
this is how i can jump into the private

0:31:58.559,0:32:01.919
sector

0:31:59.200,0:32:03.519
this is where my value is right now we

0:32:01.919,0:32:05.919
want to have that personal value

0:32:03.519,0:32:07.200
we want to have faith we want to have

0:32:05.919,0:32:09.360
that level of integrity

0:32:07.200,0:32:10.399
but when i say that transition which is

0:32:09.360,0:32:11.919
so difficult

0:32:10.399,0:32:14.000
when a veteran comes out and says how do

0:32:11.919,0:32:17.519
i jump in what job

0:32:14.000,0:32:19.480
can i do i need you to think about

0:32:17.519,0:32:20.799
what did you learn what are your

0:32:19.480,0:32:22.960
differentiators

0:32:20.799,0:32:24.320
what is the secret sauce of what you

0:32:22.960,0:32:25.760
learned in the military right

0:32:24.320,0:32:27.760
like anybody could look at me as an

0:32:25.760,0:32:28.320
interrogator and say wow you know what

0:32:27.760,0:32:31.279
you should do

0:32:28.320,0:32:33.440
is go train cops right get into security

0:32:31.279,0:32:36.559
all that stuff it's like no no

0:32:33.440,0:32:40.080
what the military taught me to do

0:32:36.559,0:32:43.120
was to gather information to build trust

0:32:40.080,0:32:45.760
to maximize influence with people

0:32:43.120,0:32:46.880
in the private sector we're talking

0:32:45.760,0:32:50.000
sales

0:32:46.880,0:32:51.600
leadership culture building right this

0:32:50.000,0:32:53.519
technique that the army taught me it's

0:32:51.600,0:32:56.480
not an army

0:32:53.519,0:32:58.320
skill set it was a military background

0:32:56.480,0:32:59.760
which taught me a skill set

0:32:58.320,0:33:01.360
which can be applied in the private

0:32:59.760,0:33:04.240
sector the other thing

0:33:01.360,0:33:05.039
that i want veterans to know and

0:33:04.240,0:33:07.039
actually people

0:33:05.039,0:33:08.799
outside who aren't veterans who are like

0:33:07.039,0:33:09.679
what do veterans bring to the table

0:33:08.799,0:33:12.320
people think you know what the

0:33:09.679,0:33:14.399
military's about it's dress right dress

0:33:12.320,0:33:16.720
wake up at six o'clock and five o'clock

0:33:14.399,0:33:19.279
in the morning and obey orders i'm like

0:33:16.720,0:33:21.679
no no no no you think there's there's a

0:33:19.279,0:33:25.840
war runs at five o'clock in the morning

0:33:21.679,0:33:28.559
i said it's about understanding

0:33:25.840,0:33:29.760
how to process information to make

0:33:28.559,0:33:32.399
decisions

0:33:29.760,0:33:33.600
to solve problems that we did not know

0:33:32.399,0:33:36.480
we were going to face

0:33:33.600,0:33:38.640
interesting yeah if you if you talk to

0:33:36.480,0:33:41.519
people in a battlefield they'll go

0:33:38.640,0:33:44.000
here's how wars work you show up and

0:33:41.519,0:33:46.080
everything's a goat rope

0:33:44.000,0:33:47.679
nothing what we expected and we got to

0:33:46.080,0:33:50.000
figure it out you're like

0:33:47.679,0:33:50.799
what like that's what it means to be in

0:33:50.000,0:33:53.519
the military

0:33:50.799,0:33:54.799
we're problem solvers we do and you have

0:33:53.519,0:33:55.840
a team of people around you that are

0:33:54.799,0:33:58.240
problem solvers

0:33:55.840,0:33:59.679
that's what we do in the military right

0:33:58.240,0:34:01.039
we are problem solving you get out and

0:33:59.679,0:34:01.600
sometimes you don't have that same team

0:34:01.039,0:34:02.880
anymore

0:34:01.600,0:34:04.399
you have to go find a new team or

0:34:02.880,0:34:05.039
develop the trust and relationships with

0:34:04.399,0:34:06.880
the new team

0:34:05.039,0:34:08.720
as well yes which is not but you have

0:34:06.880,0:34:11.200
that experience that really

0:34:08.720,0:34:13.520
put your feet to the fire no they

0:34:11.200,0:34:16.560
probably don't want you for your raw raw

0:34:13.520,0:34:20.480
lockdown military live or die

0:34:16.560,0:34:23.520
but what they do want is that mindset

0:34:20.480,0:34:25.839
to say i don't know what the solution is

0:34:23.520,0:34:26.960
but we can go figure it out let's

0:34:25.839,0:34:30.000
communicate

0:34:26.960,0:34:30.560
to build a team that that's the value of

0:34:30.000,0:34:33.040
what

0:34:30.560,0:34:34.800
veterans bring to the private sector wow

0:34:33.040,0:34:37.040
that's amazing

0:34:34.800,0:34:38.200
look this was so amazing please check

0:34:37.040,0:34:41.280
out his website

0:34:38.200,0:34:43.119
ericmatics.com am i correct m-a-d-d-o-x

0:34:41.280,0:34:44.320
dot com that's how we got connected i

0:34:43.119,0:34:46.159
just saw you online

0:34:44.320,0:34:47.839
we started hitting enough formed a

0:34:46.159,0:34:56.879
relationship thank you so much for

0:34:47.839,0:34:56.879
flying out here thanks david